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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gatri few
professions are as admired and respected
as that of the firefighter when others
flee they go forward into the fire yet
almost without a single alarm Bell
sounding Britain's fire Services have
been allowed by successive governments
of all parties to slide down the pole in
terms of wages and conditions and more
importantly for the rest of us Cuts in
appliances and the closure of fire
stations is now starting to cost lives
Paul emby is London Secretary of the
fire brigade Union I first met him in
the runup to the war on Iraq when like
me he was prominent in the effort to
stop Britain setting fire to other
people's countries now he's having to
try and stop fire service Cuts setting
fire to our own he joins us now Paul
welcome on board the Sputnik it's the
150th anniversary of the London fire
brigade but is being marked by a a quite
dramatic increase in incidents where
people are perishing and being badly
hurt in fires and you say and I agree
that's partly down to Cuts I think it's
directly attributable to Cuts we've seen
huge cuts taking place in the London
fire brigade particularly over the last
two years um Boris Johnson in 2014
closed 10 fire stations in London fire
stations that uh collectively had been
protecting londoners for around 900
years um we saw 600 firefighter Jobs go
in London as a result of that and it's
no coincidence I think that since then
uh response times across London have
increased in fact across half of London
uh Council Wards uh response times went
up uh after those cuts took place and
the really disturbing thing is is that a
third of London now um the London fire
brigade is not able to meet its own
Target response times for the arrival of
the first Appliance uh and you're quite
right that that has led to a number of
incidents particularly recently um where
people have died in fires uh in areas
where the local fire station has been
closed uh and more generally to an
increase in response times um which has
also resulted in some people dying as
well it's a really disturbing Trend and
uh it's it's absolutely attributable to
the the cut that taking place you see
most things that politicians do I
understand even if I disagree with them
I understand where it comes from this
one I can't understand we're living in
an era where Paris style events we're
told uh Massacre uh requiring
multiple uh responses from the various
emergency services are eminent are in
the air we we wouldn't be surprised if
we woke up to discover that something
like that was under way and yet at the
same time we're we're cutting our
emergency responders I just want to add
to that because when they're cutting
down the NHS I I can see that they can
afford to go to their private clinics
but how how how how who's going to save
them in a fire but you absolutely and I
think the reason for that is it it's the
whole Cuts agenda is predicated on the
the the argument that there are fewer
fires taking place now than there used
to be now okay that's a fact we accept
that but the point is the fire service
has always done and more so now does a
whole range of other work that uh
doesn't involve fights and fires um we
carry including educating people on how
to avoid virus including educating
people going into schools going into old
people's homes and rescuing people from
incidents that are non-fire related
incidents so people who are shutting
lifts for example people involved in
chemical incidents people involved in
flooding with some of the really serious
flooding that's been going on recently
um there are 38,000 rescues carried out
by the fire service across the UK every
single year there over 100 rescues a day
um and if you if you make the argument
that well we're having fewer fires
therefore we should cut the fire brigade
then I think you're completely missing
the point and I think also that argument
is is effectively based on the supply
and demand argument which is not fit for
the fire service you cannot run the fire
service according to the laws of of
supply demand it's got to be based
around risk and the logic of the the
supply and demand argument is that for
example you would close the fire station
at Heathrow Airport on the grounds that
well there hasn't been a major incident
there for a number of years that's not
the point the point is if it did happen
would you have the resources in place to
be able to to do it and the logic of
their argument is that well because
there are a fewer fires occurring now
then people can afford to wait longer in
the event they are trapped in a fire
it's it's complet non
secretary I think G's she's got the the
the bull point that the reason the fire
brigade 150 years ago came into uh being
as one fire brigade was you can't have a
privatized response to fires you have to
have Fire cover applicable across the
whole territory you can't for example
have H A Kensington and Chelsea fire
brigade uh which is able to fight rich
people's fires whilst barking might have
no Fire cover at all no one would accept
that in a in a democracy um so if you
need a centralized centrally organized
fire brigade then it just doesn't make
sense to be uh cutting and cutting it
but what's more worrying is as you said
without hardly an alarm bell ringing
this has happened how many londoners
know for example that what did you say
10 far stations have been
closed appliances decommissioned very
few people I think are aware of that I
think you're right and I think the the
history that you set out is is a correct
one and the reason why municipal fire
services like the London fire brigade
came into being in the first place is
because people saw the nonsense of
having a private firefighting system
that went before that where for example
you would have insurance companies who
would protect people from fire and
people would have plaques on the front
of their houses to denote which
insurance company they belong to and in
some cases Believe It or Not insurance
companies would would turn out and if
the plaque didn't represent their own
company they turn away and go away God
forbid s like the American Health System
well exactly and God forbid we ever go
back to a system which I think some of
the more extreme people involved in the
the fire service and within government
would would like to see but you're quite
right the public in many cases I don't
think no the half of it we've lost 7,000
Frontline firefighters since 2010 since
this government came into into Power um
in the last recorded year we lost 1800
Frontline firefighter post the biggest
loss in a single year we've seen a cut
in central government funding of 30%
since 2010 um and if you look at the the
the the forecasts for the economy over
the next few years then I don't think
it's going to get better anytime soon so
so it's really really serious um and
these uh this is really impacting on
people now I mean it's not a theoretical
debate anymore when we argued in the
fiber Gaz Union for years and years that
this will result in people dying because
they've had to to wait too long for a
fire engine to get there we're seeing
that now we know the names of people who
are dying we know the families of people
who have lost their lives because their
local fire station has closed and
because the fire service through no
thought of the firefighters have taken
too long to get there because they're
spread too thinly so this is a real
serious debate and it's impacting on
people in a fundamentally serious way is
it a British development or do you see
this happening throughout Europe
well I think I think it's uh I think it
is happening throughout Europe if you
look at the austerity and the cuts and
the privatization um that has been
imposed throughout Europe in in recent
years um then it's no doubt that
firefighting Services across the
continent all public services in fact
are under under huge pressure um I mean
I have to say we've got a government in
this country that I think is is very
keen to to cut the fire service as much
as it can which is a you know a complete
about term from what it said before the
election on the eve of the general
election in 2010 David Cameron went to a
fire station in carile in the north of
England uh and gave a commitment that
there would be no Frontline cuts to to
the fire service and of course as soon
as he won the vote he would he set about
trying to to cut the fire service as
much as he could would have th it yeah
absolutely now the reason I'm
particularly emotionally attached to the
fire brigade Union is I always make this
point that actually the existence of
firefighters like the people you
represent is a challenge to the idea
that humankind is inherently selfish
that uh the capitalist Market forces is
the only way we can organize things
because of course in truth if your
members were to negotiate a separate
deal every time they turned up a fire I
mean if you turned up at my house and my
children were in the house I would give
you everything I own in order to go in
and save them uh or or uh uh if my
worldly goods were at risk I'd pay any
amount of money to you and you could
stand there saying no no you need to put
your your offer up a bit but of course
no firefighter does that or would dream
of doing it they Plunge Into the Fire so
philosophically the very existence of
your service and the dedication of the
people involved in it is a challenge to
the selfishness of uh well speaking of
this Instinct I remember this this kid
Ania um his children play heaven um this
new thing that they have in the country
where they basically showed children
introduction to the different
professions uh they've got different
Outlets the police the fire engine
journalism everything yeah and the kids
play it being yeah they pretend play it
and they learn about it yeah yeah and
the fire engine fire brigade is the most
popular one the que was a mile long my
kids could not get in to dress up as
firefighters and get on the uh get on
the exciting but instinctively prob it
also indic people are are drawn to it so
you've got this tremendous respect and
admiration from people question is how
we turn that into Political leverage
isn't it I think you're right um and in
terms of in terms of public perception
uh yeah the the fire service has always
been held in very great esteem and
people say and I think there's a lot of
Merit in it public services are
socialism in action AR aren't they you
know particularly the National Health
Service where everybody pays in and if
you need it then Society provides it for
you free at the point of of delivery and
it's probably the best thing as a as a
nation we ever did to the National
Health Service and I think our real fear
is the the the mission creep in terms of
privatization of the fire service I mean
this government is talking about
mutualization as a stepping stone
frankly to privatization we are seeing
chunks of the fire service not
particularly the front line at the
moment although in some cases yes even
that but certainly some of the other
functions within the fire service are
being sold off to to the privateers um
and I have no doubt that some of the
Hawks within government pushing
privatization would like to see that RI
throughout the fire service and other
public services and I think there is a
real fear that we could end up back in
those days more than 150 years ago where
people actually have to to pay for a
fire service otherwise they check your
PL to see whether they're going to you
know or not whether it whether it would
be whether it would be something
particularly like that but nonetheless
where there would be a private
firefighting service that that people in
they said paid in um they can they can
go swing that is a real fear how do
people uh I mean can people if you got a
website can people Express their support
for the firefighters yeah I mean our our
uh website in the fireb Union uh fbu
dog. UK um sets out all of the campaigns
that we're running in the fiber gazes
Union at the moment locally and
nationally it's not just in London there
are huge cuts in the fire service taking
place nationally leester she recently
stood to lose a third of its entire
firefighting capability fortunately the
local firefighters run a fantastic
campaign and have staved off some of
those cuts um South Yorkshire Mery side
around the country there are some real
serious Cuts taking place and yeah we
need people we need people behind us
absolutely fb.org
indeed coming up next he's walking in
the air but his feet are squarely on
terrafirma Howard Blake OB of Hollywood
and Westminister don't miss it
welcome back to Sputnik Howard Blake is
a world famous composer Channel 4's the
Snowman enjoyed by everyone in this
country I would think and Dino delores's
Flash Gordon are just two of his
gigantic successes he's worked with
queen and David boy but it was a story
involving the real queen which caught my
eye although nobody would know it unless
like me they happen to hear it by Chance
the pre to the Charter of the United
Nations consists of fine words indeed
written at the end of the second world
war most people would interpret it as a
determined plea for world peace and that
is where Howard Blake obes problem came
in Howard Blake is with us now Howard
the preamble to the United Nations is
just about the most stirring piece of uh
proof